Neuropsychology Central

[triddle]

Hello. I'm an American undergrad seeking to go on to get a Ph.D and become a clinical neuropsychologist. However, I was curious what the applicability of that degree is to practicing in other countries? I've lived in the UK at times in my life and would like to live over there again at some point, but I would also like to be able to practice my (eventual) profession. Is it simply a matter of passing another test if I were to get the qualifications here? Would it require a different kind of training? What about vice versa (getting the degree there, and coming here). Is this the same for other countries as well? I guess to put it very simply - will I be limited to working in whichever country I get my education?

Thanks for any help.

[lash]

Hi Triddle,

Can't say I've ever done an international job change myself, but a doctorate is a doctorate. Other countries may vary in terms of how they perceive yours and how much respect they have for it, but that's political. I have several friends who got their PhD's here in the US and returned to their home countries without too much difficulty (only problem for at least one of them was that their country doesn't really have / recognize neuropsychology as a discipline, but you don't have that problem in the UK). Good luck.
_________________
Lee Ashendorf, Ph.D.
Edith Nourse Rogers Memorial VA
Co-Webmaster, Neuropsychology Central

[triddle]

Thank you for the info lash.

N_12, correct me if I've misread your post, but are you saying that a clinician in Poland does not have a Ph.D? Or are is it that after they get their doctorate, they need to go on to an additional 5 years of training?

[n_12]

I can tell you how it is in Poland. By the way, I am interesting how it is in USA lol.

Sorry for my english.
First I need explain historical context.

In Poland as you probably know, we has a lot of problems with communism. Since 1989 systems was changed but mentality and economy are still changing. In hard communism times psychology wasn`t political correct so there was just a few university departaments that provide sudies in Master of Science (or Master of Arts, I don`t know with one is for psychology - can someone explain it to me?). In those times mostly having english books was simple way to go to prison. So psychologists was not good educated. If they works as psychologists they need to educated by selvs or they work as they can. Fortunately in USSR was a few great neuropsychologist with one you probably know - Aleksander Romanowicz Luria. His ideas in neuropsychology wasn`t psychometrical but based on observation, interview and simple clinical experiments. Psychologist who wanted specialized in neuropsychology has no problems with visiting Moscow and meet Luria In Poland basing on Luria`s theories we develop in 60th and 70th methods for neuropsychological assessment that not needed to be standarized. That was simple clinical trials/tests mostly besed on showing pictures. Clinical experience has casting vote in this. For example - you don`t need to standarize for neuropsychological examination tests were you shows pictures and are asking patient to nemed them, describe what is on them, asking patients to show a cow, bicycle or you are reading short word and stories for memory free recall and asking to remember a few pictures. Very popular form of such simple tests battery was develop by Wlodzimierz Lucki as 4 books, comfortable in administration called "Zestaw Prob do badania procesow poznawczych u pacjentow z uszkodzeniami mozgu" - something like "set of tests (simlpe tests) for cognitive assessment of patients with brain damage". Of course nobody use this full name, just say "Lucki`s set" or "Lucki`s tests" and evryone knows what about you are talking. Useing simple clinical experimentals tests like Lucki`s set is very comfortable. For example many times you can`t sit down with patient in your room for psychometric assessment, becouse in neurology unit mostly patients are with hemiparesis and others things that can`t them make just go to you and just sit down on the chair. You can take this 4 books to patient room were he is on bed. You don`t need to do all tests of course, but you can choose between them what is need. Those trials allows to examine all aspect of aphasia, but aren`t so good for screening of memory or gnostic function. Such method need knowledge and experience and can be completed by other similar clinical trials when needed and when neuropsychologist can use them. First neuropsychologists in 60th and 70th establish so called organic triade: Benton + Bender + Graham-Cendall Tests. So for long time neuropsychologic assesment was made by those tests and Lucki`s set completed when it was needed by WAIS or WIS-R. In communism times psychological tests wasn`t official publicated so was made like personal manuscript duplicated by xero without polisch adaptation and norms. So great Token Test and other fantastic tests still are waiting for official publication. Recently was Wechsler WAIS-R update with fresch norms for all age groups (till that update we have norms only for 54!) and official normalization, standarization and cultural adaptation of WCST. We are useing Trial Making Test with US norms. There is of course a lot of others tests, but it need personal self-education and experiences in practice, as we are talking about standard practicioners. All of those, and especially problems with test and literature, made neuropsychology more art than science - in my opinion.

Today there is no need for doctoral studies. Ph.D in Poland in mostly scientific degree not practicioner, so makeind research and teaching on university will not help in becoming neuropsychologist. Instead of this we have 5 year additional learning with practicioners and supervisors with courses and training practice on so called professional speciallization. First years are about all major topics in clinical psychology - "psychosomatic" (that should be read as clinical psychology in non-psychiatric settings), child clinical psychology, psychiatric clinical psychology, neuropsychology. Then you chose one of this topic that you want to be farmland of. In previous years it was maintain by Polisch Psychological Association, but recently we have new recomendations and low rules for it and all professional specializations in medical services are maintain by goverment (but locally still by local profesional organizations like Polisch Psychological Association). You need to prove your interests and experience and pass exams for start specialization in hospital. It is need to get goverment accreditation by an "organization which want to run specialization program". Such organizations are of course hospitals. So if you want to work in medical services you need to be official "farmland" (even if you have USA PhD) becouse nobody will emply you or - if you are working as young psychologists - nobody will prolonged time of contract. In other hand we have economy trouble and even with doctoral degree and specialization you will have problems to get contract.

[n_12]

[Helix]

Hello,

the situation in Poland is comparable with that in Germany and the Netherlands. You don't need a PhD to work as a clinical (neuro)psychologist. This is because there still is a distinction between academic and clincial careers in these countries. If you aim at a clinical pathway, you finish psychology program with a master's degree and specialize for another 3 (Germany) or 2-6 (Netherlands, 2 years for becoming a health psychologist and another 4 years to become a clinical np) years in Clinical Neuropsychology. This means, that you work in a clinical setting under supervision and attend courses regularly. It is recommended to work on your PhD thesis simultaneously, but it is not necessary. Others, having finished the psychology program, stay at university and work on a PhD project. After these 4 years you would still have to follow the clinical path in order to be "allowed" to work in the field.

Anyway, working on your PhD and becoming a clinical np are two different things in most (all?) European countries.

Bye,
Helix

[triddle]

Thanks for the information folks. It obviously isn't the answer I was hoping for, but it is the correct one.